^That's what I mean, get rid of the helix altogether. It's a shame then that the land that the helix sits on couldn't be used then. I checked Google Maps to see how much land we're actually talking about. I used the measuring tool on there, the length from where the furthest part of the Eagle's station to where it starts to divert towards the helix is about a 1,000 feet. From that point until the furthest reach of the helix is another 600 or so feet. To put it in perspective, both Goliath and Viper stretch 600 or so feet from one end to another. Raging Bull is between 900 and 1,000 feet. So just using the area between the station and the 'diversion' point of American Eagle is pretty substantial. So an RMC rebuild of that area could still make for a very large coaster.
It's a shame that the helix area couldn't be used because a very good size coaster could fit there too. I don't know if anyone knows for sure but how far does any new construction have to sit away from I-94? Also, what about Washington St? There is some room there too depending on what space could be used. To me, it seems weird that the helix area couldn't be used for new construction though. Using the measuring tool, the closest the helix gets to the expressway is over 200 feet away. All up and down the expressway, there are plenty of buildings and houses that would appear to be closer than that.
[edit] The building right across the expressway to the east, Akorn is closer to the expressway, approximately 180-200 feet.
coasterlove wrote:I wouldn't mind it being a smaller layout if the land around the helix could be used for another ride. If American Eagle stretched out maybe just over half to two thirds of it's current land space, they could fit in another big ride or even a decent sized coaster. Then the land that American Eagle sits now could truly be "two coasters".
Yes, but I think the helix IS the problem, as its too close to the highway for construction, and it was made before the laws about it were put in place.
If you do the following two things, you will see that this is complete nonsense.
You will confirm the ride is within the current zoning limits and if the park wanted to encroach on these limits, they would apply for a zoning variance.
coasterlove wrote:I wouldn't mind it being a smaller layout if the land around the helix could be used for another ride. If American Eagle stretched out maybe just over half to two thirds of it's current land space, they could fit in another big ride or even a decent sized coaster. Then the land that American Eagle sits now could truly be "two coasters".
Yes, but I think the helix IS the problem, as its too close to the highway for construction, and it was made before the laws about it were put in place.
If you do the following two things, you will see that this is complete nonsense.
You will confirm the ride is within the current zoning limits and if the park wanted to encroach on these limits, they would apply for a zoning variance.
I really don't know where all of these rumours about the zoning variance is coming from. But that's good news that they can use the space.
IssaCoaster wrote:I really don't know where all of these rumours about the zoning variance is coming from. But that's good news that they can use the space.
What rumors? I am just stating what the process is for changing the zoning if they were going to build beyond the limits.
IssaCoaster wrote:I really don't know where all of these rumours about the zoning variance is coming from. But that's good news that they can use the space.
What rumors? I am just stating what the process is for changing the zoning if they were going to build beyond the limits.
I was referring to the Eagle helix being too close to the highway. Or the Eagle being too close to Washington to be worked on. Those kind of rumours.
Just to be clear, I didn't intend for what I wrote about proximity to the expressway to be taken as truth. I always was questionable about it but without the knowledge either way, I spoke on the possibility either way, true or false. If they can use that space with proper zoning authorization or whatever, that's great because it is a lot of space!
They are running both sides today. Red just stopped at the top of the lift hill for a while. When they restarted it red and blue went at about the same time and they were virtually racing, only off by a couple seconds. I don’t think maintenance would have let red go when they did if the issue was concern about the structure being able to handle both trains. Also I talked to an architect friend and he agreed with the idea that if the structure was that bad they wouldn’t run either side at all.
SFGAM_Hog wrote:Just saw this on someone's Instagram story: "According to Hank Salemi the newest (next ?) coaster will be 'Exciting, thrilling, and a fan favorite' RMC Eagle?"
I’m going to respond to this the exact way I had to that Instagram story -
He will say that about anything. Cause in 2007 I was DEVASTATED over DéjàVu. So I made a shirt that literally said “RIP DéjàVu, $*?! this we’re goin to Cedar Point” & he approached me asking why I was upset over Vu. I told him my reasons & He told me “what goes in that spot next year will be an inspiration to burn those T-shirt’s! - if you like it, & I’m sure you’re going to, will you get rid of those shirts?” I said you have a deal....
Buccaneer Battle went in that spot. Did I burn the T-shirt? Hell no. But my old apartments dryer did literally just two years ago. Lol my point is, while I appreciate having BB, it did not fill in the hype Hank told me it would. & that’s just what he’s doing, hyping. Maybe he’s right this time but I am not gettin giddy over his statement. Lol
SFGAM_Hog wrote:Just saw this on someone's Instagram story: "According to Hank Salemi the newest (next ?) coaster will be 'Exciting, thrilling, and a fan favorite' RMC Eagle?"
I’m going to respond to this the exact way I had to that Instagram story -
He will say that about anything. Cause in 2007 I was DEVASTATED over DéjàVu. So I made a shirt that literally said “RIP DéjàVu, $*?! this we’re goin to Cedar Point” & he approached me asking why I was upset over Vu. I told him my reasons & He told me “what goes in that spot next year will be an inspiration to burn those T-shirt’s! - if you like it, & I’m sure you’re going to, will you get rid of those shirts?” I said you have a deal....
Buccaneer Battle went in that spot. Did I burn the T-shirt? Hell no. But my old apartments dryer did literally just two years ago. Lol my point is, while I appreciate having BB, it did not fill in the hype Hank told me it would. & that’s just what he’s doing, hyping. Maybe he’s right this time but I am not gettin giddy over his statement. Lol
Maybe he was referring to the eventual addition of XFlight? I doubt he would even compare Deja Vu to a kid boat ride. Or maybe they had other plans for the spot other then BB?
SFGAM_Hog wrote:Just saw this on someone's Instagram story: "According to Hank Salemi the newest (next ?) coaster will be 'Exciting, thrilling, and a fan favorite' RMC Eagle?"
I’m going to respond to this the exact way I had to that Instagram story -
He will say that about anything. Cause in 2007 I was DEVASTATED over DéjàVu. So I made a shirt that literally said “RIP DéjàVu, $*?! this we’re goin to Cedar Point” & he approached me asking why I was upset over Vu. I told him my reasons & He told me “what goes in that spot next year will be an inspiration to burn those T-shirt’s! - if you like it, & I’m sure you’re going to, will you get rid of those shirts?” I said you have a deal....
Buccaneer Battle went in that spot. Did I burn the T-shirt? Hell no. But my old apartments dryer did literally just two years ago. Lol my point is, while I appreciate having BB, it did not fill in the hype Hank told me it would. & that’s just what he’s doing, hyping. Maybe he’s right this time but I am not gettin giddy over his statement. Lol
I think there was other plans. He did and interview saying that the next attraction would connect both sites together. I think it was supposed to be a B&M dive machine and they opted for Buc instead and we got X Flight 3 years later.
SFGAM_Hog wrote:Just saw this on someone's Instagram story: "According to Hank Salemi the newest (next ?) coaster will be 'Exciting, thrilling, and a fan favorite' RMC Eagle?"
I’m going to respond to this the exact way I had to that Instagram story -
He will say that about anything. Cause in 2007 I was DEVASTATED over DéjàVu. So I made a shirt that literally said “RIP DéjàVu, $*?! this we’re goin to Cedar Point” & he approached me asking why I was upset over Vu. I told him my reasons & He told me “what goes in that spot next year will be an inspiration to burn those T-shirt’s! - if you like it, & I’m sure you’re going to, will you get rid of those shirts?” I said you have a deal....
Buccaneer Battle went in that spot. Did I burn the T-shirt? Hell no. But my old apartments dryer did literally just two years ago. Lol my point is, while I appreciate having BB, it did not fill in the hype Hank told me it would. & that’s just what he’s doing, hyping. Maybe he’s right this time but I am not gettin giddy over his statement. Lol
I think there was other plans. He did and interview saying that the next attraction would connect both sites together. I think it was supposed to be a B&M dive machine and they opted for Buc instead and we got X Flight 3 years later.
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I honestly think this was the plan. We were rumored to get a dive every year pretty much since Oblivion.
CoasterRiderSC wrote:^ Ben, thanks for clarifying that! I now understand what B&MGuy (and others) were trying to explain: The rollback mechanisms on the train are free to move during entire X-Flight ride and they do! There are no rollback "teeth" on the track on the inline twist. I get it now
I also think that noise during the inline twist is actually pretty cool!
They are called chain dogs. I think it is a pretty fun sound to listen to while waiting in line for X Flight. When riding on the inside of the wing, watch inside of the middle of the car. You can see the chain dog attach and come off of the chain. I've literally watching it the whole ride once haha!
So with the announcement of Gwazi today, it is fascinating to see the RMC conversion considering this was a dual track woody (of which I have no familiarity). They converted to a single track; Looking at the stats, it seemed like they kept a good amount of ride length (~4000) while sacraficing the dual track aspect.
I wonder, if they kept it dualing, how the length would have changed.
In light of the possibility of Eagle, this is the most recent comparison we now have.
Chirojon wrote:So with the announcement of Gwazi today, it is fascinating to see the RMC conversion considering this was a dual track woody (of which I have no familiarity). They converted to a single track; Looking at the stats, it seemed like they kept a good amount of ride length (~4000) while sacraficing the dual track aspect.
I wonder, if they kept it dualing, how the length would have changed.
In light of the possibility of Eagle, this is the most recent comparison we now have.
RMC Eagle is fantasy. Even chopping from 7016ft to 4075ft..permits value the coaster at 20M. Early permits had demolition costs at 500K. Add in extraneous stuff, theming, etc..this is 22M+ project..far out of SF's price range and again, that's with a chop of almost 3000ft.
Chirojon wrote:So with the announcement of Gwazi today, it is fascinating to see the RMC conversion considering this was a dual track woody (of which I have no familiarity). They converted to a single track; Looking at the stats, it seemed like they kept a good amount of ride length (~4000) while sacraficing the dual track aspect.
I wonder, if they kept it dualing, how the length would have changed.
In light of the possibility of Eagle, this is the most recent comparison we now have.
RMC Eagle is fantasy. Even chopping from 7016ft to 4075ft..permits value the coaster at 20M. Early permits had demolition costs at 500K. Add in extraneous stuff, theming, etc..this is 22M+ project..far out of SF's price range and again, that's with a chop of almost 3000ft.
Agreed 100% To properly RMC Eagle, it would cost well over $30 million. Which is impossible with Six Flags "Every park gets something new every year" model.
Now they don't even give every park something every year (Nothing for Magic Mountain, Frontier City or The Houston or Mexico water park in 2020) they just lie about it and still install carnival rides.
Chirojon wrote:So with the announcement of Gwazi today, it is fascinating to see the RMC conversion considering this was a dual track woody (of which I have no familiarity). They converted to a single track; Looking at the stats, it seemed like they kept a good amount of ride length (~4000) while sacraficing the dual track aspect.
I wonder, if they kept it dualing, how the length would have changed.
In light of the possibility of Eagle, this is the most recent comparison we now have.
RMC Eagle is fantasy. Even chopping from 7016ft to 4075ft..permits value the coaster at 20M. Early permits had demolition costs at 500K. Add in extraneous stuff, theming, etc..this is 22M+ project..far out of SF's price range and again, that's with a chop of almost 3000ft.
Agreed 100% To properly RMC Eagle, it would cost well over $30 million. Which is impossible with Six Flags "Every park gets something new every year" model.
Now they don't even give every park something every year (Nothing for Magic Mountain, Frontier City or The Houston or Mexico water park in 2020) they just lie about it and still install carnival rides.
SFMM got nothing b/c their 2019 ride is their 2020 ride. WCR is suppose to open middle of November. SF got no ROI from one of their most anticipated rides for 2019 & biggest expenditures in 2019. Also, anything added in 2020 would be overshadowed. so would they really be getting much additional incremental ROI. The plan probably originally not to give them anything big for 2020 even if WCR had opened earlier in 2019.
Frontier City & White Water are probably being treated together. If I remember correctly FC got something in 2019 and WW nothing, now in 2020 they are giving WW something and FC nothing announced.
For Houston & HH Oxtapec waterpark don't always get something new every year in the industry in general.
This is by necessity most likely. SF has taken on a 6 new operating lease dry/water parks in the last 2 years, while still holding on to their same Capex formula. There are more mouth's to feed, so parks are going to have to combine linked water/dry parks as 1 entity in their every year scenario. Also, give some parks cheap stuff. SF years back used the superloops as the ultimate inexpensive ride(1M) to pass around. The Funtime Volmatron which Stl and Escape got might be the next iteration of that. Skywarps would have been that, but Skyline has failed to get the rides to be reliable. SFDK has had major problems and Sea World SD is having problems with their mode too.
Sven18 wrote:[quote="Chirojon"]So with the announcement of Gwazi today, it is fascinating to see the RMC conversion considering this was a dual track woody (of which I have no familiarity). They converted to a single track; Looking at the stats, it seemed like they kept a good amount of ride length (~4000) while sacraficing the dual track aspect.
I wonder, if they kept it dualing, how the length would have changed.
In light of the possibility of Eagle, this is the most recent comparison we now have.
RMC Eagle is fantasy. Even chopping from 7016ft to 4075ft..permits value the coaster at 20M. Early permits had demolition costs at 500K. Add in extraneous stuff, theming, etc..this is 22M+ project..far out of SF's price range and again, that's with a chop of almost 3000ft.
Agreed 100% To properly RMC Eagle, it would cost well over $30 million. Which is impossible with Six Flags "Every park gets something new every year" model.
Now they don't even give every park something every year (Nothing for Magic Mountain, Frontier City or The Houston or Mexico water park in 2020) they just lie about it and still install carnival rides. [emoji38]
SFMM got nothing b/c their 2019 ride is their 2020 ride. WCR is suppose to open middle of November. SF got no ROI from one of their most anticipated rides for 2019 & biggest expenditures in 2019. Also, anything added in 2020 would be overshadowed. so would they really be getting much additional incremental ROI. The plan probably originally not to give them anything big for 2020 even if WCR had opened earlier in 2019.
Frontier City & White Water are probably being treated together. If I remember correctly FC got something in 2019 and WW nothing, now in 2020 they are giving WW something and FC nothing announced.
For Houston & HH Oxtapec waterpark don't always get something new every year in the industry in general.
This is by necessity most likely. SF has taken on a 6 new operating lease dry/water parks in the last 2 years, while still holding on to their same Capex formula. There are more mouth's to feed, so parks are going to have to combine linked water/dry parks as 1 entity in their every year scenario. Also, give some parks cheap stuff. SF years back used the superloops as the ultimate inexpensive ride(1M) to pass around. The Funtime Volmatron which Stl and Escape got might be the next iteration of that. Skywarps would have been that, but Skyline has failed to get the rides to be reliable. SFDK has had major problems and Sea World SD is having problems with their mode too.[/quote]Do you know how much West Coast Racers cost? I can see us getting an attraction and not getting something the next year in the future.
Holding Capital expenditures at 9% of revenue (only 60% of that being used for new rides) and adding a whole bunch of operating leases that produce little revenue compared to the legacy parks AND promising a new ride for every park every year just isn't sustainable.
In 2019 they left out all sorts of water parks and this year, they left out two dry parks and two water parks. As far as I'm concerned they need to end this "Every park gets something new every year" spiel and just copy what Cedar Fair does. Don't add rides to every park every year, but invest capital where it makes sense. Cedar Fair is meticulous with this and it pays off.
I honestly Say go the weird route & only RMC one side. It ain't gonna duel that way but it's a unique way to rebrand the ride & keep the coaster count going up. One side traditional, one side modern. Two rides sharing one structure, Two eras colliding together.
JackGlass wrote:Holding Capital expenditures at 9% of revenue (only 60% of that being used for new rides) and adding a whole bunch of operating leases that produce little revenue compared to the legacy parks AND promising a new ride for every park every year just isn't sustainable.
In 2019 they left out all sorts of water parks and this year, they left out two dry parks and two water parks. As far as I'm concerned they need to end this "Every park gets something new every year" spiel and just copy what Cedar Fair does. Don't add rides to every park every year, but invest capital where it makes sense. Cedar Fair is meticulous with this and it pays off.
Cedar Fair in August did their annual analysts day at Cedar Point which had a 2h 30 min presentation/Q&A, I listened to it and saw the slides. CF is actually going to the give every park something model. Now that might just mean a festival add on, like Valley Fair is getting in 2020. They are also kept referencing Knotts as the model, with their "Seasons of fun". That means ramping up events, festivals for all year and making big Capex coasters every 4 or 5 years..ie...Knotts 2008,2013,2018. KB has been growing rapidly and set records in 2018 and are ahead of that pace in 2019. CF specifically said they don't see the need to put in coasters every 2 or 3 years. That's pretty much a direct "shot" at CP and KI. CP got coasters in 2013,15,16,18 and KI 2014,2017,2020. All the other big parks were already getting coasters on about 4 or 5 year intervals. CF outlined their entire forward looking strategy and spoke on the data, studies, focus groups, etc..that guided it. It was very insightful.
gottastrata33 wrote:I honestly Say go the weird route & only RMC one side. It ain't gonna duel that way but it's a unique way to rebrand the ride & keep the coaster count going up. One side traditional, one side modern. Two rides sharing one structure, Two eras colliding together.
I have seen this plan before, but I honestly think ridership on the old side will drop so much it will not make sense to keep it going anymore. I doubt I would ride the old side much if at all anymore with a nice, new, smooth, and more intense RMC side next to it.
gottastrata33 wrote:I honestly Say go the weird route & only RMC one side. It ain't gonna duel that way but it's a unique way to rebrand the ride & keep the coaster count going up. One side traditional, one side modern. Two rides sharing one structure, Two eras colliding together.
I have seen this plan before, but I honestly think ridership on the old side will drop so much it will not make sense to keep it going anymore. I doubt I would ride the old side much if at all anymore with a nice, new, smooth, and more intense RMC side next to it.
I think it is a pretty fun sound to listen to while waiting in line for X Flight. When riding on the inside of the wing, watch inside of the middle of the car. You can see the chain dog attach and come off of the chain. I've literally watching it the whole ride once haha!
