I am not going to recount a full play by play of the two days I went to CP But I will offer up my observations, ride reviews etc etc. Here we go..
6 years have passed since I last made a visit to Cedar Point, and with this year marking my full return to theme parks and coasters, It was pretty much a give in that id make the trek to Sandusky. While I had planned to visit CP in September, My girlfriend Alexis surprised me with a CP weekend 2 months early!
And let me tell you "surprised" doesn't tell half the story.
We got to the park on Saturday shortly before opening, knowing full well that the day was going to be busy (and it was) I decided that Id hit the two coasters id never been on (Maverick and Wicked Twisted) early in the day, and then hit the rest of the park.
In 2004 when I last visited CP, Wicked Twister was closed so, after realizing that Maverick is WAY in the back of the park, I hit WT First. I rode it in the very back row, and I found the back spike really cool, but I must say that compared to V2, V2 has a slight edge, but never the less, it was a really fun ride, and I really enjoyed the hanging in the rear spike.
Alexis, is not in anyway shape or form a coaster enthusiast, she really enjoys flats a lot more then coasters, and if she deems that a coaster or any ride for that matter will be one that will make her sick, she wont ride. Being a fan of Demon, We moved on to Corkscrew after I rode WT, and this was the first of many "surprises" at CP this weekend. While in the queue, I noticed Dragster sending 1/2 empty trains repeatedly, found that rather odd to myself since the line was on the midway all the was past the station. Even Alexis commented to me saying, "That line is so long, and they only have it 1/2 full." I thought that was really kind of odd until I noticed that Millennium Force was doing the same thing. 1/2 full trains on all the cycles, I didn't care as I wasn't queuing for those rides anyway.
While queuing, two adult men decided that it be a great idea to start smoking in queue, because of course there's nothing better then breathing in smoke when your with in 6 inches of a person, especially when there's a lot of people around. heading up the stairs prior to the station, I smiled and said hello to the host who was checking height's for the ride, and she basically could have cared less that I was there, in fact the look on her face pretty much told me, that she'd rather be anywhere else on Earth at that point then sitting there working.
We head into the station and the female ride op who was checking restraints, and using the headset PA system was probably one of the rudest people I have ever encountered at any amusement park I have ever been too. " Put your belongings into the correct marked bins, Hurry Up! sit down, pull down on your harness and fasten your seat belts, hurry up! hurry up! hurry up!" Lets go! Hurry Up" A group of three who where in the row immediately to our right, mistakenly went 3 people to the train instead of 2, and the ride up, over the PA system mind you said "This ride has 2 across seating, NOT 3! We are already secured and locked you wont be able to ride this train, (empty seat immediately in front of her group, OTSR was down) You are going to have to get back at the end of the line in order to ride this ride.
So the mistake of a group of 3 people going through the air gates instead of 2, cost 1 person there chance to ride a ride she waited 30 minutes for.
We rode then headed too Iron Dragon, where again another person was smoking a cigarette in the queue, and once again I attempted small talk with the host at the station, and again got the same treatment as I did at Corkscrew. Alexis was looking forward to this ride, as she put it "I like how this ride swings back and forth" she wasn't all that thrilled after we rode it however. "That ride was slow as hell, the 2nd half of the ride was okay I guess."
With Millennium Force now with a full queue, and me not sure If ill be able to fit on the damn thing, We continued towards Maverick. Walking past the BRAND NEW!!! (but closed) Shoot the Rapids!!! I said Alexis look "Its the new ride for 2010"!, and shes like "but its closed", and then proceeded to give her a small lesson in coaster dorkness, by explaining that Intamin makes some really awesome rides that look amazing, but they don't really work all that well all the time.
Maverick had a posted queue length of 2 hours, but I noticed the line was continually moving and we waited. after about an hour 15 minutes we rode 2nd to back row. Maverick is an awesome coaster, the 1st drop is really good, it has a lot of speed, and the launch through the 2nd half of the ride is amazing. Alexis wasnt all too happy with the 2nd bunny hit and the airtime she got (I was though ) but other then that she said she'd ride the ride again, (More on that later)
Throughout the day, Alexis rode several flats, (Mostly the spin and pukes, which I cannot ride) And I took to the coasters, Alexis did however really enjoy Cedar Creek Mine Train, while I rode it once and decided never to ride that ride ever again. She also liked Disaster Transport, which the "theming" makes pretty much zero sense but I liked it back in 04 and its still a neat little ride.
Rode Magnum 2nd row, and liked it better this time the when I rode it in 04, but will continue to say that this ride, is EXTREMELY over rated. Raging Bull is for what its worth a lot better then Magnum.
The park on Saturday was open until 11pm, and with it getting late, and the two of us getting VERY tired, I got off of an amazing front row ride on Raptor and then had a decision to make as to how id end day 1 at CP, Millennium or TTD. Since there was a light/fire works show going on around MF, I decided to go for TTD.
Now, I have heard reports from various websites about the difficulties people are having on MF and TTD regarding the seatbelts, some people saying that they've had not problems others saying they've shortened the seatbelts at least another 4 inches.
Whatever, earlier in the day, I went on the test seat to see this for myself, and missed the seat belt buckle by at least 4 inches, Knowing that even in 04 the teat seats could not be trusted, I attempted to see if I could go up the exit row, and try and test the seat on the train itself rather then use the test seat, as it says is permitted on CP's website, http://www.cedarpoint.com/public/park/rides/ride_policy.cfm Too which I was greeted with a flat out "No you cant" after I mentioned that CP's website says its allowed, the ride op told me something that basically confirmed the test seat was BS. "The test seat out in front has our new seatbelt lengths that are on some select rows of the trains, so if you can belt the test seat, you can get on any row" (My thoughts on this later)
Anyway my last ride of the night was infact TTD, Despite all the garbage about the test seats, and belt lengths etc. I rode it backrow Purple train.
Day Two:
I started my day out heading straight for Millennium Force, again knowing that the seatbelt issues are worse here then on TTD, I asked the ride host which was the best row and train to go too. She directed me to the row. And sure enough I had some issues with the belt, the ride op was just about to tell me that i needed to get off the ride, (With the seat belt, less then an 1 inch away from being clicked) The op told me I was 5 to 6 inches away from it being clicked, then another op came over, and easily clicked the belt for me. So much for being 6 inches away.
Millennium Force is all about speed, (which is fine, I love the speed) but for anyone to say that MF is an airtime machine, no not at all. I have said this before, Back in 2004 when I rode it the first time. Raging Bull has more airtime the first drop then MF, in 2010 ill amend that to say. ANY B&M hyper has more air the MF, Especially Diamondback and Raging Bull.
Alexis wanted to ride Iron Dragon so we walked around to that area and queued for ID, where we were greeted with a teenager smoking weed directly behind us.
Following ID, I decided to ride Mantis, which the posted 30 minute wait sign would have been true had I not gotten line jumped several times while queuing in line. Rode Mantis 2nd row which was a lot better then when I rode it in 2004.
Day 2 was a lot less crowded then the Saturday before, and I got a lot more rides in Sunday, then I did Saturday of course, I choose also to ride more of the bigger flats Sunday too, since the lines where a lot more manageable then the previous day.
at one point we walked back around past the closed Shoot the Rapids(never opened once the whole two days we were there), and the broken down Maverick (was down for lengthy periods through out day 2.)
My Observations:
Cedar Point has some amazing rides and attractions, and I enjoyed them, very much in fact, but the operation of the park and the security in the park has fallen to a level that was SFMM circa 2002. Dirty park, rude employees, punk teenagers smoking in line and line jumping. All the stuff you've heard about SFMM during that time you got at CP and then some.
The arrogance and rudeness level at Cedar Point is astonishing. I didnt mention it above, but several employees: Ride ops and Gift shop workers where just flat out rude and pissed off that I was in their presence. One ride op at Mean Streak let out a loud "OH MY GOD! and was visibly upset that a guests lapbar was closed after the train came back into the station.
Upon leaving, I wanted to know when 2011 CF Platinum passes where going on sale. or at least just get an idea since I want to try to make it out to CP or KI again this year, and get a CF pass for 2011 as Im planning a big trip. Anyway I went into guest relations and asked about when the 2011 passes go on sale, and then I shared my story about the park employees.
The lady at Guest Relations, said im sorry. But really could careless. I explained that it was my first trip in 6 years, and I passed 2 Six Flags parks that where closer to me then CP was, and I choose CP because of its great reputation etc etc, They handed me a survey form which I fully intend on filling out as well as Alexis, but it seemed pretty much to me, that they didnt care at all anyway.
Final Thoughts:
Cedar Point has become SFMM circa 2002, awesome rides, terrible operations, dirty, and horrific employees. I counted on one hand the two days I was at CP the times A. I saw a security guard and B. The number of times a CP employee said hello or even acknowledged I was there.
Aside from the terrible park ops, the rides where too me anyway, as advertised.
SkyHawk and Maxair where amazing flats TTD at night is amazing. NEVER trust the test seat Intamin failed again with another multi-million dollar attraction
But the biggest thing to sum up the whole trip was the final thoughts of a non-coaster enthusiast hell, non theme park enthusiast Alexis said.
"Personally, I would have rather spent the weekend at Six Flags Great America, yes Cedar Point has some amazing rides, but with how terrible the employees where here at Cedar Point, and how bad the line jumping, the smoking throughout the park, how dirty the place was. I cannot see at all how this park gets all the accolades it does. At Great America, I felt welcomed, appreciated and above all else, I felt that there where not as many gang bangers running around causing trouble as there where at Cedar Point, yes the rides where good, but for someone like myself who isnt all into theme parks, I can honestly say I like Great America a lot better."
It should be noted that Alexis has been to Great America a grand total of 3 times prior to her visit to CP, and again she is NOT in anyway a coaster enthusiast or park enthusiast, she took me to CP as a belated birthday surprise.
Wow, this sounds completely different than the Cedar Point I last went to in 2008. I never really experienced bad attitudes from any operators and they were always some of the happiest most upbeat people in the park. Sounds terrible and just makes me want to hold off on a trip back there for awhile.
Sorry you had such a terrible time. That really sucks that the employees were in such terrible moods. I can't say I'm very surprised that they were in bad moods, but it still sucks.
I'm not trying to make excuses for the park, but you went during one of the busiest weekends of the year, so I think the operations and security can't be 100%. They still should have been better than what you described though.
As for Mean Streak and the Oh My God. Mean Streak's lapbars stick constantly, and its more than likely that the op was just being sarcastic instead of mad at the guest.
Yeah. Maverick breaks down. A ton. Almost always on the 2nd launch in the tunnel.
As for the 1/2 full trains. Dragster always launches half full in the morning so it doesn't roll back as much. MF will go 1/2 full if it just rained. One thing CP usually does right is capacity. They will put on as many trains as possible all the time.
Glad you enjoyed all of the rides though. CP certainly has a ton of those.
Top 5 wood-5-Goliath 4-Ravine Flyer II 3-Phoenix 2-Voyage 1-El Toro Top 5 Steel- 5-Velocicoaster 4- Maverick 3- Fury 325 2-Steel Vengeance 1-X2 Coaster Count: 444
^ Nick, I wish the Mean Streak op was venting her frustration on the the lapbars, but that was definitely not the case. She had this mega horrible attitude the entire time I was in line for the front row of MS.
When I went to CP in 06 it was great, then when I went in 07 it was a really bad experience and very difficult to have a good time. Friendliness is definitley not one of the Cedar Fair company's strong points. I was on Millennium Force once and sat down and buckled/pulled my lapbar down real quick then helped the person next to me get his belt on quicker. The ride op came over and said "As that sign over there says [points to sign], you cannot help anyone put their seatbelt on, he has to do it himself." Wasnt really that big of a deal but he was a total prick the way he communicated it. There was another time I was walking down Magnum's exit and there was an employee walking down the ramp cussing up a storm, really bad, just walking right next to a whole train of guests exiting the ride. Not something you typically see anywhere (maybe besides Wal Mart). Also the difference in staffing just from 06-07 was astonishing, they had cut what seemed like almost half of their staffed positions and the operations were just way worse. Knowing how Cedar Fair has been cutting a lot of corners the past few years and trying to manipulate the payscale of their employees to pay under minimum wage, I can only think this has gotten worse and turns into things you encountered yesterday.
Also last time I was at CP: Maverick, MF, and TTD all opened late. MF broke down while we were in line, TTD broke down while we were in line (and several other times throughout the day), Maverick broke down like 4x while we were in line (and several other times throughout the day), and Wicked Twister broke down while we were in line. I don't know how or why this park thinks its a good idea to keep buying Intamin, but that is a lot of breakdowns. I'm hoping that was just a bad day, CP is still a good park that i'd gladly visit again, and one of the two Cedar Fair parks that is unique and doesn't totally suck (the other being KI).
I didn't have any problems like this at all when I went in June. Kings Island was the more troublesome park relating to guests who try to figure a way in order for them to get on a ride as fast as possible. The thing I hate about Cedar Fair parks though is that they run the trains, and than since they are lazy to do all the rows, they block some of them off. This happens especially on Gemini, and Magnum. Than, people are waiting longer times for no reason. They even did it at Dorney Park on Thunderhawk too. Yet, they won't you reride the ride.
I just find that there are some great things that Cedar Fair does, and there are some bad things they do. For Kings Island take for example, I mean magnets on the bins. How genious of an idea is that? Compared to Six Flags and the bins, the lids of the bins would fall down, and Six Flags would just leave all the bins open, and than people would probably steal stuff. Here the ops open the one bin, and close the other bins. They do the walk across the row for B&M rides, and it really does wonder, but yet Six Flags can't figure that out. Than, to me though the positives of Six Flags is that they do rerides when you have empty rows, and the licensing rides. You aren't just riding some generic name ride, and Six Flags has rides with Batman on them, Superman, Scooby-Doo, and so on. I guess for operating things except for no rerides which I hate (if empty row except for Kings Island- I think the rule is 2 in a row and that's it) I think Cedar Fair is better operating the parks, but I like Six Flags roller coasters better.
I do however like some of Cedar Fairs flats better like they still have Tilt-A-Whirls, Revolution 32 at Dorney Park, they have the Max Air rides, and some Chaos's left. At Michigan's Adventure, I think they have a Thunderbolt while I guess SFNE to me looks like the best Six Flags flats park with the Wipeout, and the other Chance Safari ride. Don't get me wrong, SFGAm has flats, but I think SFNE has Six Flags great flats, and 2 flats isn't much, but still.
"I've been staring at the world, waiting. All the trouble and all the pain we're facing. Too much light to be livin' in the dark. Why waste time? We only got one life. Together we can be the CHANGE. So go and let your heart burn bright"
Great TR. I can't believe Cedar Point has become that way. I last went in 2006 and it was nothing like that. Very disappointed in Cedar Point to say the least.
Great TR Galvan. Well now I know to steer clear of CP, well until they improve the park. Shapiro needs to come to Cedar Point and clean it up, and make it more family friendly...
I see that you posted this over at the Coasterbuzz forums. That took a lot of nerve Most of the responses were excatly what I thought they would be before I even made it down to the comments. Though, a few members over there do not have their heads up Cedar Points a**. In fact, Lord Gouncher's ( only one of a few with comman sense) comment is spot on. Everything in your trip report is the reason why we have not gone back there in two years for our vacation. Sorry you didn't have a great time, but a well written trip report non the less.
If it walks like socialist, quacks like socialist, smells like a socialist, .... it's a socialist. Hope, and change we can believe in.
Galvan316 wrote:^ Nick, I wish the Mean Streak op was venting her frustration on the the lapbars, but that was definitely not the case. She had this mega horrible attitude the entire time I was in line for the front row of MS.
Thats what happans with American Eagle. Part of the problem is that on American Eagle and Viper they expect the lapbars to come up by them selves like they do with Raging Bull
Last edited by tribar on August 10th, 2010, 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Seriously, what do you expect from employees at Cedar Point? They probably get bombarded with coaster enthusiasts all the time because they have the most coasters, and they are probably sick of coaster enthusiasts just trying to bug them. At Cedar Point, they have to even say the statistics constantly everyday of the roller coaster they are working on. The employees that don't care to talk are probably just sick of coaster enthusiasts. This is understandable. At Six Flags, they are forced to wave, and say hello, and what not, and in a deep dark room they probably mutter I hate these people so much. For security, that's something different, and I can't defend that at all, but the rest I understand. If you worked there, you would probably get sick of the constant questions of these coaster people. It's like their heaven.
For Mean Streak, you say the employee was complaining about it, well for a ride at Six Flags you don't hear what they complain about because they don't have a headset on them to tell you about it, so you just heard frustration from a worker outload. When I went in June, I got a thank you for helping them with a harness on Raptor. On Chaos, the ride employee and I were talking about the ride, and than when ride employees off duty went on the ride, I talked to them on Chaos as they were in the same car. Chaos is just awesome, and I had a blast on it!
Maverick was only problem at Cedar Point, and that was because of no hats on the ride, but yet everything else I went on, they didn't care, and even Kings Island. I had the hat on my wrist for Firehawk, Invertigo (a million times lol), Chaos, Gemini, Tilt-A-Whirl, White Water ride, Cedar Creek Mine Train, Disaster Transport, Racer, Raptor, Flight of Fear, Backlot Stunt Coaster, Millenium Force, Diamondback, and what not, and didn't loose it because it's on my wrist, but on Maverick nope, you can't wear on your wrist. Maverick is SPECIAL! lol
What parks don't understand is that when you put a hat on your wrist (in between the strap for the hat), it takes FORCE to put it on your hand, and it's not going to come off. Hats will come off though when they tell you to wear them on your head. Who's stupid idea is that? I don't wear any hats to Six Flags parks after problems with dumb them, but Cedar Fair, carnivals (with any intense ride in the book like Wipeout, Freak Out, Orbiters, Zipper, Yo-Yo, Force 10, Flying Bobs, Top Scan), Busch Gardens, WDW, Universal, they understand I won't loose it. It's only when I was told to sit on it at Six Flags, sure I loose it. Dummys. And on top of it, for my first ride on Deja Vu, I had on a winter hat, and I almost lost that on my head. The hat was coming off, and I had to grab it with my hand before it came off. I could understand this if my hat was one of those fitted type of hats, but I don't wear those type of hats at all, and I put them around my wrist when on rides, but Six Flags it's we can't acknowledge that as you securing your hat which is ridiculous. They tell you to put it on your head, and it's going to fall off if it's even a little windy.
"I've been staring at the world, waiting. All the trouble and all the pain we're facing. Too much light to be livin' in the dark. Why waste time? We only got one life. Together we can be the CHANGE. So go and let your heart burn bright"
TwistedSTEEL666 wrote:Great TR Galvan. Well now I know to steer clear of CP, well until they improve the park. Shapiro needs to come to Cedar Point and clean it up, and make it more family friendly...
haha, lets just be glad you aren't in charge of things. CP has two dedicated kid areas no fewer than GAm has.
I also have never had issues with the staff their, they have always seemed more enthusiastic than their GAm counterparts but I suppose that all comes down each person's perspective.
And in all honesty, even if the parks were dead even, I would still have to pick CP because at least there is a variety of music playing throughout the park. My first trip to CP and first ride was on the flat Chaos, and Baba O'Riley starts playing. I knew instantly I would love this place.
The one thing that drives me bonkers at GAm during the day is the non stop repeating RADIO Disney music playing all day long. How many times can they replay the song "I like to move it, move it". I wait in line for Millennium Force, and they have a DJ in the booth spinning.
Yeah done deal for me, music plays a pretty big role in ambiance for me.
^I like the Move It Move It song, but the reason they started to do that is because they said something like our workers clean so good, so something like that. They have been doing a repeat song for years now though with the Vengaboys song, and the Carwash Christina Aguilera song.
"I've been staring at the world, waiting. All the trouble and all the pain we're facing. Too much light to be livin' in the dark. Why waste time? We only got one life. Together we can be the CHANGE. So go and let your heart burn bright"
Ilovthevu' wrote:Seriously, what do you expect from employees at Cedar Point? They probably get bombarded with coaster enthusiasts all the time because they have the most coasters, and they are probably sick of coaster enthusiasts just trying to bug them. At Cedar Point, they have to even say the statistics constantly everyday of the roller coaster they are working on. The employees that don't care to talk are probably just sick of coaster enthusiasts. This is understandable. At Six Flags, they are forced to wave, and say hello, and what not, and in a deep dark room they probably mutter I hate these people so much. For security, that's something different, and I can't defend that at all, but the rest I understand. If you worked there, you would probably get sick of the constant questions of these coaster people. It's like their heaven.
Theres about 27 different things that are wrong with this statement, First and foremost Alexis is not anything close to an enthusiast, she is GP through and through and I dont care where you work, how much you hate your job, but if you're going to walk around with a terrible attitude, you deserve to be in the unemployment line.
It is absolutely absurd for you to condone the blatant guest mistreatment that Myself and Alexis got at CP, Im a paying customer afterall, and people seem to forget that the paying customers are ultimately what pay those employees salaries.
I dont care if SF employees are forced to wave and say hello, if its part of the job, then dammit they should do their damn job. It is completely irrational to think that just because a very small subset of the overall guest population is asking ride ops a question that they need to get a pass on piss poor service.
You know, Six Flags had a bad reputation in the industry about bad customer service, and all i heard on boards across the web is how "Oh god, SF sucks at service, blah blah blah" Now the Holy Grail of Theme Parks treats not only an enthusiast (me) like dog crap, but a GP customer (Alexis) the same way and they deserve a pass? Why? Oh, because " They probably get bombarded with coaster enthusiasts all the time because they have the most coasters, and they are probably sick of coaster enthusiasts just trying to bug them." Seriously? your seriously going to sit at your computer and believe that total and complete non-sense?
Wow, The way that We were treated at CP was inexcusable and I guarantee you, if I made the same complaint at SFGAm, I would have walked out of that damn park like I owned the place.
I have to agree 125%. One of the people at the shops just would not accept my discount, so when I went to guest services, the man apologized and asked if I would rather have a free meal or skip the line pass. ( I took the latter.)
If you were told to do something by the person that pays you, you do it. Even if it's the most odd thing ever, you do it. No questions, and you do it like you care.
Just the other day, while at dinner, our waitor just decided it would be fun to ignore us, and then give the bill. Trust me, the tip on a $35 dollar meal should have been about $5. Ours was a fifth of that.
Hopefully you will have a better trip if you ever go there again. I had the time of my life there in June and didn't have any of these problems you had. I've had the greatest customer service at an amusement park at Knott's Berry Farm, which is the same chain. So Cedar is quite capable of turning it around. Glad to know I'm not the only one who feels that way about Magnum......
Wow, it seems a few weeks makes a big difference in terms of service. I was just there on August 24th-25th, and didn't notice any rude ride ops at all. I thought the ones on TTD and Millennium Force were really cool as well in terms of trying to accommodate larger guests. I'm not a small person either, and have a problem with the belt on both TTD and MF. I couldn't seem to get the belt on my own for MF, and every time, one of the ride ops just did it for me with a small amount of effort, and never seemed to be put off by it. TTD I was usually able to buckle on my own, but I think a ride op helped me once. I also observed a very large person attempt to ride TTD and I thought there was no way he'd fit considering my issues. However, one of the ride ops spend a few minutes trying to get the belt around him so he could ride, and actually got it after a lengthy struggle.
Probably the rudest employee I encountered there was the attendant outside of Maverick on my 2nd day there near park closing. We had already ridden Maverick, and were hoping to get back in line quickly to get another ride. However, we were just a few minutes late, and he told us they were closed in a somewhat frustrated tone. I can understand his frustration though; getting late, close to quitting time, and there's someone not doing what you want them to do. That was the worst person I encountered, and it wasn't a horrible experience.
As for the other ride ops, most seemed to be cheerful and enjoyable to listen to while in line.
I have to agree with almost everything in this topic.
Cedar point has some world class attractions, and in the past I've always said that their lines move very fast and they always have a lot of people working the stations to move things as fast as possible, but I've gone three times this year and can tell you that is no longer the case.
The park has terrible upkeep with spider webs everywhere, rude employees (I even saw employees being rude to little kids), and awful maintenence, you can just tell that the maintenence at SFGAm is far superior then maintenence at Cedar Point.
While the ride ops have suffered this year compared to last, I must say that I always get good service eating food. Their food service (with a few exceptions) is usually very fast and efficient, and if you eat at a sit-down restaurant (like the red garter) it's even better.
^Spider webs is the most annoying thing about that place. If we had too many people staffed we were sent to go clean off webs from fences. The problem was that it only takes about 3-4 hours for the webs to appear again.
Oh, there are Spider webs when you exit the Dark Knight, and in Batman the Ride line.
"I've been staring at the world, waiting. All the trouble and all the pain we're facing. Too much light to be livin' in the dark. Why waste time? We only got one life. Together we can be the CHANGE. So go and let your heart burn bright"
) but other then that she said she'd ride the ride again, (More on that later) 
Most of the responses were excatly what I thought they would be before I even made it down to the comments. Though, a few members over there do not have their heads up Cedar Points a**. In fact, Lord Gouncher's ( only one of a few with comman sense) comment is spot on. 
